Umineko Project

Thank you very much, that will help greatly

We're very busy at the moment...

Hi, and thanks for the wonderful work you're doing by bringing the PS3 versions and all its upgrades to the original novel to the PC!
And well, since I wanted to be of some help too, here's a supplement to what YNagato posted: it's the entirety of the Aegisub subtitles I made for timing and positioning the Italian choruses that "Umineko no Naku Koro ni" (the original PC version opening theme) had, together with translations to English based off the official glossing that Akiko Shikata, Wataru Hano and Noriko Mitose gave them as seen in the booklet to Shikata's Turaida album.

[+] Spoiler

Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.64,0:00:01.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(89,32)}Né regole.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.64,0:00:01.78,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(1023,714)}Bury Van Dine's Twenty Commandments.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:01.98,0:00:03.70,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(151,38)}Né comandamenti.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:01.98,0:00:03.70,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(1122,710)}Crush Knox's Decalogue.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:03.76,0:00:06.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(190,66)}Ne ragione.\NIn altre parole: imprevedibile.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:03.90,0:00:06.74,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(927,716)}Eliminate even the exposed reality.\NIn other words, make it unpredictable in all possible ways.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:06.86,0:00:11.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(394,32)}Ma succede. Cose spiacevole succedono. E io ne sono la causa.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:06.86,0:00:11.60,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(870,716)}However, calamities approach. The first cries of the catastrophes all rise. The hardships are strum by my hand.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:11.60,0:00:14.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(142,38)}Ancora non capisci?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:11.60,0:00:14.80,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(927,712)}Are you still going to continue having that idiotic mentality?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.88,0:00:16.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(135,32)}Niente di cui nutrirmi.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:14.88,0:00:16.66,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(990,714)}There is nothing you can even take a bite from.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.88,0:00:19.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(155,36)}Mi fanno morire di fame.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.88,0:00:19.82,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(1023,712)}Come now, drown in endless anguish!
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.96,0:00:27.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(280,30)}Mi fanno morire credendo di poter predevere.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:19.96,0:00:27.94,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(861,714)}Starve to death while still clinging to your ways of reaching the truth!
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.64,0:01:27.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(300,28)}Senza amore, senza amore la veritá non si vede.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.64,0:01:27.48,Default,,0,0,0,,{\pos(964,710)}Without love, without love you won't see the truth.

Thanks a lot

It looks like we aren't going to be able to use that Italian translation, unfortunately.

Although the Turaida album does provide Japanese for the song, so does the Harmonia album (the opening lyrics for Rengoku are the same), and the Japanese translation provided is entirely different. Both versions creatively reinterpret the Italian in different ways, and so much like it was with the Rokkenjima message bottles, both are cast into doubt. Which was closer to the original intention of the song? Was either? Where did the Italian come from in the first place — was it a translation of something or written from scratch? We may never know.

There are two other reasons.

1. Earlier posts indicate that the Italian here is grammatically correct, which reduces my will to ignore it.

2. Many of the Rondo ending credit rolls used the Japanese technique of "lyrics written with different kanji than are sung" to a huge extent. We already decided back then to translate what was sung — i.e. the way every Japanese person listening to the song will hear and understand it, rather than the external document which isn't even distributed with the game, that assigns other inaudible meanings to the lyrics. A similar principle applies here: We'd like to translate the Italian that can be heard, rather than the external materials.

If there were Italian grammatical mistakes fixed by a single Japanese gloss that was relatively literal and showed the original intention, instead of creatively reinterpreting it all over the place, our approach would be different here, but that is just not what we have.

Here are my thoughts on the matter:
The Italian parts were made by an external translation agency that took as its basis the original Japanese glossing written by the actual lyricists, so I'm guessing the Italian parts were actually written the way they are in order to keep the choruses as short as possible, given the amount of meaning they crammed into these short sentences and the total duration of the choruses when actually sung.

As for the lyrics to Rengoku, I'm aware they are the same and that the glossing is different between both versions, but that's because Rengoku is supposed to express different feelings and ideas from the original version of the song. In fact, Shikata herself wrote in her personal blog (http://raka1025.blog78.fc2.com/blog-date-200908-2.html) that the song was supposed to be an expression of the feelings she got from playing Umineko up to the end of Alliance of the Golden Witch and that it has as its theme the "flames of madness that spread throughout the humans' hearts", while the original version is more of a general vision of what the novel will be like.

And finally, the translation from Turaida actually is very close in meaning to the messages that appear in the opening video of the second chapter to the original release of Umineko, Engrishy as they are:

"No Dine"
"No Knox"
"No Fair"
"In other words, it is not mystery"

"But it happens"
"All it happens"
"Let it happens"

"Once again"
"No Dine"
"In other words, it is to starve"
"Starve while demanding the fair, and die'

(Here's also the video at the start of where these messages show up: https://youtu.be/5Jfalz9NABU?t=11s)

So all in all, I find little reason to doubt the validity of the Turaida glossing, and in fact, I think it would be the best interpretation to consider for translating these lines, as the glossing is supposed to have been penned by Mitose and Hano themselves.

Hmm, I forgot about that original opening. That's interesting. "Let it happens" could possibly be interpreted as "make" (causative, cause...), and the "all it happens" feels like it could link up to 遍く somehow. There are two lines "No Fair" and "Starve while demanding the fair" that imply a link between them by the repeated usage of "fair", but the Turaida gloss has no real link (公然たる事実 in one place, 真実 in the other) and neither does the Italian. I can't figure out why "Once again" and "No Dine" (the second one) are present.

In conclusion, not sure if that opening helps or just muddles things further...

Let's say for the sake of argument we trust Turaida completely. The main problem is then these three lines, I guess.

Niente di cui nutrirmi
Mi fanno morire di fame
Mi fanno morire credendo di poter prevedere

If we're translating the Italian, I really can't outright ignore the "mi" in "Mi fanno morire di fame" and surrounding lines, and translate as if it was a command instead, when what is sung is grammatical and explicitly not that. It leaves the realm of interpretation and just starts ignoring the Italian entirely.

We basically have two options: to include the translation of the glossing as you did and also somehow write/indicate that it is a glossing and not a translation of the Italian (any suggestions? Maybe we actually cite the Turaida album as source?), or to translate the Italian, and use the glossing as an interpretation guide.

The disadvantage of the former is that the Japanese is flowery in a way that works best poetically for Japanese (not necessarily for English once translated), and providing a glossing instead of a translation in a subtitle file is pretty unusual. The disadvantage of the latter is that I see no way to work "interpretation" into those three lines above. They simply contradict, from what I can see.

I'm 100% sure that the "No Dine" part is supposed to link up with the 二十の理は埋れ glossing, as it's the only reference to Van Dine's Twenty Commandments in the lyrics (as well as setting up the cringeworthy pun that we see later on in "Once Again" "No Dine" "In other words, it is to starve" "Starve while demanding the fair, and die").

However, I see your point in these three particular lines. I really don't understand either why they used first person conjugation for them ("Mi fanno" instead of "Ti farai" and the way "nutrirmi" is conjugated) if the intention was to make them imperative, and sadly that same exact problem is also present in the lyrics to Rengoku.

As for these two options... I'd go with the first one if I had to make the call. After all, I've had to work with songs for other game series where using the glossing instead of the literal translation for the lyrics is not only the norm, but almost a necessity to conserve the meanings.

aquagon wrote:(as well as setting up the cringeworthy pun that we see later on in "Once Again" "No Dine" "In other words, it is to starve" "Starve while demanding the fair, and die").

Oh.
Ohhhhhhh.
God.
That explains that.
I missed it completely.

aquagon wrote:As for these two options... I'd go with the first one if I had to make the call. After all, I've had to work with songs for other game series where using the glossing instead of the literal translation for the lyrics is not only the norm, but almost a necessity to conserve the meanings.

Alright

Thanks for the newest updates that have incorporated the subtitles and have been gorgeously done!

Since suddenly the whole alpha-testing discussion section was all gone, I can only make a report on this most recent alpha version here.

It's just a minor mistake concerning the last parts of the English subtitles:
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.59,0:01:16.69,Translation,,0,0,0,,The artful truths and lies
Dialogue: 0,0:01:16.69,0:01:22.26,Translation,,0,0,0,,Without love, it cannot be ‘seen’

Since the line starts with plural truths and lies, it should end with "THEY cannot be 'seen.'"

I will let Knox know about it. But it probably is intentional due to key phrase specifics.

Since suddenly the whole alpha-testing discussion section was all gone, I can only make a report on this most recent alpha version here.

This is a little worrying. [EN] Discussion works for me…